PCM19690520CITY PLAN COMMISSION
CITY OF MUSKEGO
MINVTES OF MEETING HELD MAY 20, 1969
CITY HALL
Mayor Wieselmann called the meeting to order at 8:04 P. M.
PRESENT: Mayor Donald Wieselmann, Chairman, Ald. Frank Narlock,
Secretary, Alvin Basse, Charles Buehler, City Engineer Joseph
Russell Knetzger and Building Inspector Lee were also present.
Kelsenberg, Ed Raimann, and Mrs. Jean Sanders. Plan Consultant
ABSENT: Willard Bertram
MINUTES: Ald. Narlock moved to approve the minutes of the previous
meeting of May 8, 1969, as mailed. Mr. Raimann seconded the
motion and the motion carried.
""""" PERSONAL APPEARANCES
MRS. MARJORIE SCHMIDT - Mrs. Schmidt, W193 S7491 Woodland
Lots 2 and 3, Block 1, Bay Shore Hills Subdivision. The following
Place, appeared requesting determination of legal lot status for
communication dated May 15, 1969, directed to the Mayor and
Common Council was read by the Recording Secretary:
"Gentlemen:
Subd., which were lots of record at the time of passage of the
Subdivision Control Ordinance.
As these lots are held in my ownership and one of the lots
is now substandard because of the county's acquisition of a strip
of the lots to another owner, this in accordance with Sec. X (A)
of property for widening Racine Ave., I am unable to convey one
of the Subdivision Control Ordinance.
Therefore I am requesting the Mayor and Common Council to
Lot 3 prior to the construction of sewer along Woodland Place.
grant legal lot status to these lots in order that Imy sell
Lot 2 is presently being sewered from Racine Avenue.
I am the owner of Lots 2 and 3, Block 1, Bay Shore Hills
Yours very truly,
/s/ Mrs. Marjorie Schmidt''
for this RS-2 District is 20,000 sq. ft. with 110' average width;
It was noted by the Commission that the lot size requirement
that Lot 2 contains 18,474 sq. ft. with 61.58 average width and
that Lot 3 contains 28,743 sq. ft. with 100.50' average width.
slope easement and 23' acquired by the county for ditching for
Racine Ave. along the south lot line of Lot 2.
Mrs. Schmidt questioned if the lots are granted legal status
will the new owner of Lot 3 be required to wait until the lot is
sewered to build and Mayor Wieselmann answered that he would not.
legal status be granted to Bots 2 and 3, Block 1, Bay Shore Hills
Subdivision. Ald. Narlock seconded the motion and the motion
carried.
City Engineer Kelsenberg pointed out that there is a 10'
Mr. Buehler moved to recommend to the Common Council that
May 20, 1969 Page 2 - Plan Commission
"""_ OTHER BUSINESS
LOUIS LUDWIG - The Commission reviewed a request for
Ludwig Bros. Oil Co., S107 W16311 Loomis Rd. It was noted by
approval ot a revised location for a sign advertising ENCO for
the Commission that originally Mr. Ludwig had requested the
sign to be located on state-owned property adjacent to his busi-
ness location, that the revised location is on Mr. Ludwig's
property and that at this revised location the 40' high sign will
Commission that the sign had been approved by the Commission at
straddle a 25' high existing sign. It was also noted by the
their meeting March 18, 1969, and that on March 27, 1969, the
allow the 40' high sign.
Board of Appeals had granted 10' variance from the sign code to
Mrs. Sanders moved to approve the revised location for the
sign as submitted. Mr. Basse seconded the motion and the motion
carried.
GRAVEL, INC. - Attorney Jack Radtke appeared as representative
for Mr. Dale Dawson, owner of Gravel, Inc., to discuss the renewal
of an extractive permit for Gravel, Inc., which expires June 19,
1969.
Rake, Construction Superintendent, and Ron Felsner, Resident
Engineer, from the Wis. State Highway Commission, on Monday,
May 19, and that they advised him that the original plans for this
project called for a 5.0/6.0' fill over Tans Drive, however, that
from the proposed right-of-way, the plans are now revised to lower
since the county had permitted Mr. Dawson to remove some material
the grade to about 4.0/4.S1 above the existing grade of Tans Drive,
and that the excess material which will be removed from the future
road bed by a private contractor, L. G. Arnold, will not go into
Mr. Dawson's pit. The city engineer also reported that the
has not as yet been reached.
restoration plan allows a maximum 40' depth and that this depth
Gravel, Inc., and the county, the county had determined that the
"Y" with the exception that Tans Drive will be approximately
road grade of new CTH "Y" will be approximately the same as old
4.0/4.5' higher at its intersection with new Cl'H "Y". He advised
that the primary contractor, L. G. Arnold, had offered to sell
the fill from the new highway construction to Mr. Dawson, however,
that Mr. Dawson "did not feel that he is in a position to buy his
own dirt back". He advised that although the 40' depth has not
been reached, the operation will be restricted because it is
of this property because of its location near the cloverleaf
impractical to go deeper at this time. He pointed out the value
for the Rock Freeway.
City Engineer Kelsenberg advised that he had met with Mike
Attorney Radtke advised that during negotiations between
Page 3 - Plan Commission
May 20, 1969
pointing out that he had hoped the county would consider dropping
the level of new CTH "Y" to allow the creation of a level piece
of ground between Racine Ave. & Tans Dr., that it will create
an awkward situation for access as the pit's final grade will be
10' below the highway's final grade.
new grade of CTH "r' when it is restored. He requested the
Commission to view the site to determine its best use. He also
pointed out that the pit is being considered a deposit station
for the muck in the event Little Muskego Lake is dredged, however,
he suggested that along the sides of Tans Drive might be good
deposit areas for the muck.
City Engineer Kelsenberg advised that before muck can be
deposited a 2.O/3.Ot fill would be necessary to protect the water
tables.
Radtke advised that the type of fill specified for the pit is
In answer to questions from Building Inspector Lee, Attorney
"hard fill" and that a 200' offset from the new road will be
maintained.
Atty. Radtke expressed concern at Mr. Dawson's property on
the west side of the new CTH "Y" which, because of its elevation,
will not be useable. Mrs. Sanders questioned if the gravel company
desired to quarry on the west side of the new CTH ''r' and Atty Radtke
answered "yes", that although it is not a good grade of material
for quarrying, it could be used for fill as the existing pit will
need, as a rough estimate, 400,000 cu. yds. of fill, however, that
the new highway to operate.
the state will not give permission for the gravel company to cross
will be completed and Atty. Radtke advised that within 5 years
restoration will be completed. In answer to a question from
Alderman Narlock, Atty. Radtke advised that physically the pit
could be filled in one year, but that financially it could not.
Alderman Narlock questioned how the grade of new CTH ''Y"
compares to the grade of old CTH "Y" at the intersections of Tans
Dr, and City Engineer Kelsenberg advised that there is approximately
4.0/4.5' slope between the two.
new restoration plan which will indicate the county grades at the
Planner Knetzger recommended that the Commission request a
intersections of Tans Drive and the new and old CTH "Yt.sl'
relationship to the gravel pit and for the city engineer to
in
reevaluate the bond in relation to the required amount of fill to
meet the new grades.
the Common Council until the Plan Commission receives a new
restoration plan and to request the city engineer to reevaluate
the necessary bond. City Eng. Kelsenberg seconded the motion and
the motion carried.
Planner Knetzger expressed concern at the proposed grades
Attorney Radtke advised that Gtavel, Inc., will meet the
Mr. Buehler questioned the time involved before restoration
Ald. Narlock moved to defer action on the recommendation to
Page 4 - Plan Commission
May 20, 1969
INDUSTRIAL PARK - The Commission discussed and reviewed Mr.
Ray Wallner's proposal for an industrial park on the Pohlmann-
Loomis and DeBack farms. (See Plan Commission minutes of May 8,
1969)
Council from City Engineer Kelsenberg estimating the costs for
sewer and road on this proposed 40 acre parcel was reviewed by
the Commission:
"Gentlemen:
The following communication directed to the Mayor and Common
Subject: Estimate cost for 40 acre plot - Industrial and
Commercial Plan
Item No.
1. 4200.0 lin ft. of 12l' Sanitary Sewer
@ $12.50 per lin ft. $52,500.00
2. 14 Manholes - V.F. 170 @ $30.00 5,100.00
3. Approximately 4200 feet of roadway with
seal coating @ $7.50 p.1.f. 31,500.00
A 4200 1.f. of roadway with deep left
asphalt @ $12.35 per lin ft. 51,870.00
4. Approximately 400/500 lin ft. 24" metal
culvert pipe at Hi '*Yrt and new proposed
roadway @ $12.65 6,325.00
These are approximate figures only
Plan A $52,500.00
5.100.00 ,~~ 31,500.00 (Gravel & Seal Coat)
Plan B $52,500.00
5,100.00
51.870.00 (Deep left asphalt road)
6i325.00
115.795.m
Respectfully submitted,
/s/ J. M. Kelsenberg, P.E."
Page 5 - Plan Commission
May 20, 1969
The following communication dated May 19, 1969, directed to
Mr. Joseph Kelsenberg from Consulting Engineer John Mielke was
reviewed by City Engineer Kelsenberg:
"Dear Joe:
west of relocated CTH *lYtt and prepared the following estimate for
I have reviewed the area around the proposed industrial site
the initial phase of a water supply system for this area.
estimate.
of relocated CTH '*Yt' approximately 1100 feet west of the center
of Sec. 16.
greater than the immediate supply demand of the 40 acre ttparkll,
civic center and adjacent lands.
3. The reinforced concrete underground storage reservoir is
sized for a fire flow of 1500 g.p.m. for 100 minutes. This would
be a requirement for sprinkler systems which may be installed in
some of the industrial buildings in the area. Of this flow, 1000
g.p.m. would handle a sprinkler system for a 30,000 sq. ft. building
and 500 g.p.m. would be used for hydrant demand. Pressure would
be at 50 p.s.i. in the street.
phase of the system.
provide adequate protection for the area to qualify for favorable
insurance rates.
6. The reservoir and station would be designed to be expanded
as additional service areas were added to the distribution system.
The estimate is as follows:
The following assumptions have been made in arriving at the
1. The well, pumphouse and reservoir are to be located west
2. The initial well construction will provide a capacity
4. No elevated storage tank would be required for the initial
5. An auxiliary fire pump, natural gas engine driven, would
1. Deep Well - 12" diameter, 1450' deep
cased to 545' $ 36,000.00
2. Well pump & control - 400 g.p.m. 9,000.00
3. 10,000 gal. pneumatic tank, service
pumps & piping 24,000.00
4. 1500 g.p.m. fire pump & control,
(natural gas engine driven) 11,500.00
5. Electrical Work 2,600.00
6. 150,000 gal. reinforced concrete
reservoir 28,000.00
7. Service building
15% Engineering & Contingencies
10.800.00
$121,900.00
18,200.00
Total $140,100.00
information. Please call me if you have any questions or desire additional
Yours very truly,
/s/ John H. Mielke"
Page 6 - Plan Commission
May 20, 1969
their willingness to participate in the financing of this
industrial site on an assessment basis. Mayor Wieselmann advised
that the Council had not discussed what method of borrowing would
be used to invest in the industrial park.
to aid in the development of this park pointing out that money
has been committed foisewers, the purchase of Idle Isle, civic
center, etc. She suggested if the city considers spending this
amount on the development, it would be her opinion that the city
should also consider purchasing the property.
in this park, sewers, civic center, Idle Isle, etc. would have to
be granted by priority.
for the city to have a capital improvement program.
arose - What affect a 40 acre industrial park would have on the
capacity of the city's sewer system? (Planner Knetzger advised
that an industry uses approximately 5 times more of the sewer
facility than a residence), If an industrial park is developed
would residences proposed for sewer be delayed from hooking into
the sewer? Where will the city acquire the money to invest in
the development? How will the interest be handled? Would it be
in the best interests of the city to have an industrial park
near the civic center? What portion of the cost will be
assessable to the industrial park?
Mr. Ray Wallner advised that it would be his intention to
pay the assessment in full at the time a lot in the industrial
park is sold, that the cost per acre in the industrial park
would be approximately $12,000 as compared to $8500 for an
improved lot in the RS-2 District, that the assessment will be
paid in 10 years whether or not any lots are sold, that it would
not be possible for him to develop the park if the city does not
for the industrial park as an industrial site cannot be sold
participate and that he does not have any commitments as yet
until the area is zoned for such.
Mrs. Ellie Peterson, realtor, suggested that the city would
be setting a precedent by helping this industrial park and questioned
if the city would invest in another development.
Commission would have to have realistic figures indicating the
be able to make a recommendation to the Common Council, the
amount the city would have to invest.
Planner Knetzger recommended that the Commission direct him,
to meet and agree on an industrial park design, that the state be
the city engineer and consulting engineers, Ruekert & Mielke,
contacted to determine an access, and to determine a breakdown
would invest and what portion the developer would pay.
on the total cost of the development - what portion the city
Kelsenberg, Ray Wallner and Consulting Engineer John Mielke as
a group do a study and layout of the industrial park, and pro-rate
the costs as they would be applied to this 40 acre parcel for
water system, roadbeds, lot layouts and topography to determine
The Commission noted that the Common Council has indicated
Mrs. Sanders questioned where the city would get the $300,000
Alderman Narlock pointed out that money for the investment
Planner Knetzger reminded the Commission of the importance
Considerable discussion followed and the following questions
Mr. Buehler pointed out that before the Plan Commission would
Mr. Buehler moved that Plan Consultant Knetzger, City Engineer,
Page 7 - Plan Commission
May 20, 1969
what it will cost the city in dollars to participate in the
development of this industrial park. Mrs. Sanders seconded the
motion and the motion carried.
on more than a 40 acre parcel, however, it was the Commission's
opinion to base the cost on the 40 acre parcel only.
Planner Knetzger questioned if costs should be determined
""""_ PLANNER'S REPORTS
MOTHER-IN-LAW HOUSE - As concerns three pending building
permits in the Building InsDector's office to construct homes
with provisions for a mothe;-in-law, Planner Knetzger advised that
he, the city engineer and building inspector had met just prior
to this meeting to discuss amendments which could be made to the
zoning ordinance to allow a home with such provisions in a
single family residential area.
had been reviewed by the group:
1. Change "family" definition to include mother-in-law unit in
single family areas subject to architectural approval.
Advantage - Would not allow duplexes and avoids red tape.
Disadvanta e - Limits units to blood relatives, too limiting d, etc., and tampering with "family" definition
effects other problems.
Planner Knetzger presented the following suggestions which
2. Permit two family dwellings in all residential areas as a
use-by-right.
Advantage - Encourages two family since theEwould be no red
tape involved, reduces project type multiples, disperses
renters among owners which creates more pressure on absentee
Disadvanta e - Politically not likely to be well received,
landlords and creates a better social mix.
lscontlnulty of building mass in lowest residential zones
and the population capacity would be harder to estimate.
+
3. Permit two family as a conditional use grant.
AdvanSage - This would be politically more acceptable and
would avoid a building mass problem.
Disadvanta e - Red tape involved and it discourages units
there ore advantages of #1 reduced.
Mr. Buehler advised that in Waukesha, duplexes have success-
Building Inspector Lee suggested that perhaps the out lots
It was suggested that perhaps duplexes could be allowed on
___T"g
fully been limited to arterial streets.
near recorded subdivisions might be used for two unit structures.
the perimeter of a subdivision but not allowed on the interior of
a subdivision.
Mr. Basse suggested that perhaps the mother-in-law unit might
be limited to adults.
It was also suggested that a house with a mother-in-law
provision might be allowed in single family subdivisions if the
second unit has only one bedroom and that the design and architec-
ture is maintained as basically a single family residential home.
Page 8 - Plan Commission
May 20, 1969
#2 is concerned is that it would allow all kinds of structures.
It was suggested that a disadvantage as far as suggestion
It was the Commission's decision to consider the above
for two weeks. Mr. Raimann seconded the motion and the motion
remarks and Mrs. Sanders moved to hold this matter in abeyance
carried.
ADJOURNMENT - Mr. Raimann moved for adjournment, Mrs. Sanders
seconded the motion and the meeting adjourned at 11:05 P. M.
Respectfully submitted,
LdzLd-4
Recording Secretary
Barbara J. Sands
b js
5-27-69