COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE- MINUTES - 7/13/19930 CITY OF MUSKEGO
COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE
Minutes of Meeting held July 13, 1993
The meeting was called to order at 6:OO p.m. by Mayor De Angelis. Also present
were Aldermen Patterson, Dumke, Misko, Sanders, Schneider, Taube and Woodard,
City Clerk Marenda and Terra Development representatives Bob Patch and Bill
Carity.
The purpose of the meeting was to discuss with representatives of Terra
Development the storm water management problems of the Lake Forest
Development.
Bill Carity presented the history of Lake Forest. In the Fall of 1989 all
working plans were approved by the City. Construction commenced in the Fall of
1990 on portion a single family residential of approximately 60 lots.
Completed in the Summer of 1991, and had parade of homes. The multi-family
commenced in the Fall of 1991, and portion of residential Phase I1 also started
in the Fall 1991. Approximately 200 units approved multi-family with half
built or 104 units. In August 1991, rules changed regarding development of
Wetlands, NR 103, precluding development of Wetlands. A second portion of the
pond was to be developed with the second phase of multi-family which couldn't
now be built. Losik Engineering came to the Public Works Committee for
approval of half of the pond, and some requirements for structures. We
recognized new law created a problem and the pond was reviewed by Public Works.
Carity continued that in the Fall of 1991, the City of Muskego asked us to
even though our plans had been previously approved. We recognized some
install a silt trap in Lions Park Drive. We voluntarily built a silt trap,
responsibility here. This was approved by Public Works and approved by Ruekert
& Mielke and installed in December of 1991.
Carity stated in 1992 we went into a majority of construction of multi-family
and completed the last phase of single family residential.
Carity described the detention ponds that were built and presented a map. He
explained the drainage basin and where the water goes. He indicated that 55
drain to the detention pond. Also the stream is now classified as navigable,
acres off-site to the north was not included in their engineers calculations to
and can't be rerouted to the detention pond per the DNR. Outlet structure into
the Wetlands yet to be built, location not yet determined and how to achieve as
much detention as possible in this half of pond to be determined. We admit
some problem with rip rap, stabilization and seeding. Fall of 1992 and Spring
due to the rains.
and Summer of 1993 have been very wet, and we haven't been able to get in there
Carity stated this is the first meeting we have formally had with the Council.
Little Muskego Lake Association has had six (6) meetings here in your Council
Chambers. The City of Muskego and their engineers have been working with the
good feel for erosion control. We have a new engineer and need recalculations
of drainage basins. The Lake Association has suggested we silted in Moonlight
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association who has their own consultant, who is not an engineer, but has a
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7/13/93 - 2
Bay and Kingston Bay of Little Muskego Lake. The Lake Association has asked us
how much money we want to contribute to dredge. We have not been told how much
silt we contributed. We also question the trap installed at the base of
Kingston Bay. Has it ever been inspected and cleaned by the City of Muskego?
It is a filter, and filters need cleaning.
Alderman Taube said that it was upon your knowledge that we became aware of
this technology, and your engineer sized the silt box and put it in to serve a
particular purpose.
Carity responded that yes our engineer designed it. We thought it would work,
and installed it at our expense at the request of the City.
Bob Patch stated that there seems to be a lack of communication here. We're
glad to be here to discuss this matter. We're reading in the paper about
ultimatums that seem to be coming. We're involved with the DNR and things
don't change quickly. We have from the beginning, with this silt trap and other
efforts, worked in good faith, and are being made out to be bad guys. I called
this meeting to explain to the aldermen what is happening. This site was an
extreme water problem prior to our purchase. We did the best job with our
the City engineers missed the 55 acres to the north. Also, mid-stream the
engineers to design a system that would work. Yes, our engineers missed and
whole pond couldn't be built due to DNR ruling. When this was brought to our
attention, we did start working on recalculations and redesign. We heard the
City discussed suing us. We have never said we would not take care of the
problems. We are guilty knowing of our engineers design errors, and Ruekert L
issues: stabilizing the site and construction of two (2) basins not working
properly. We now have a full time erosion inspector on site. We believe at a
technical meeting next week we will have some calculations requested by the
Lake Association and the DNR. The stream is now called navigable as of last
winter, and it was to have been redirected which now cannot be done.
Mayor De Angelis said the City has been involved from day one through our
staff, and through my office. The issue of the entire site comes down to
engineering faults which need to be corrected, and the timeliness of the
corrections. Sometimes there may be a lack of communication, but timeliness is
not there. An example is the problem with the stockpile of dirt, which was
knocked down before a plan in place.
Alderman Taube said that the City has tried to work with you on problems. In
good faith the City accepted your soil erosion practice. A channel developed
in that stream because of erosion, and due to time it took to implement your
erosion practices. Up front due to the pitch of land, we knew there were going
to be drainage problems. You'll have to accept responsibility of your
engineers. If the Lake Association had not jumped in, we'd still be waiting
construction. It took a long time to get you to do the seeding.
for you to make corrections. Mass areas of land were disturbed while under
Bob Patch stated we did complete and seed areas as requested, and have done so
several times. Taube stated your multiple seedings were due to your lack of
to us. We allowed you to continue construction with deeper half pond because
efforts to seed in a timely manner. When you found out about NR 103, you came
we trusted you to get the job done properly.
Mielke review errors, and this process taking too long. There are two (2)
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0 Patch stated that stream was always navigable, but not determined to be
navigable. Taube said your engineer designed a detention pond with a navigable
stream there? Patch said it was not on City or DNR maps at the time. Taube
stated my opinion is if you would have put it in right away, these problems
would not have come up.
Alderman Schneider concurred with the Mayor and Alderman Taube. He felt the
timetable and end everyone's frustration. I have watched the muddy water come
single biggest thing is timeliness - too little too late. Pick a plan and
off the land and down Richdorf with Public Works Superintendent, John Loughney.
Alderman Sanders asked what can be done to solve the problem?
Bill Carity said we have constructed the detention areas and plan to maximize
them. I don't believe we will detain the 55 acres to the north. It will
that is not what was agreed to. Bob Patch stated the DNR will not allow us.
always run to the wetland into Moonlight Bay as it always did. Taube stated
Carity added that we are willing to detain it.
Alderman Sanders asked, "Can you work with the DNR to take away the navigable
designation?" Patch responded we can detain it, if we can bring the stream
into the pond. Carity stated an environmental assessment would have to be done
to redirect the stream. It's at least a six (6) month process.
Taube stated he didn't care what happens. You agreed to take care of that 55
acres. Carity stated we're doing the best we can. Technical meeting will be
also. There are some problems here. I believe they can be solved. Taube
stated had you done a better job of holding soils on site, and better
stabilization, we wouldn't have these problems. Patch said system still
wouldn't have worked. Our silt fencing and erosion control system were
reviewed by the City, and we implemented it. During 1988, 1989-1991 the City
was not requiring people to seed. It wasn't until last year we got pressure to
seed.
0 held on July 2lst with the DNR and Ruekert .S Mielke attending the meeting
Bob Patch stated I have never said we will not take responsibility for the
problems.
Carity stated we believe we have three (3) alternatives; to maximize the
multi-family pond, to extend it to the edge of the wetland, to enlarge a
detention pond already built in the northwest, to tear out and rebuild and to
detain all on site storm water, and possibility of creating another small pond
on one of the lots we own in the northwest area. Restructure northwest pond
from dry pond to wet pond subject to approval. Flow and silt calculations
being done. I am not sure what else can be done with the 44 acres to Kingston
Bay. It is seeded. Detention pond and silt trap installed. I don't know how
much silt in Kingston Bay. It has been silted in for one hundred years.
Taube asked are you going to deal with the 55 acres? Carity stated it is very
difficult.
Alderman Dumke asked what happened with all your expertise that you didn't do
It rlght? Carity responded the rules changed. We couldn't build it the way we
designed it. An incredible amount of rainfall has occurred. We have had
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0 problems with timing, and have had engineer problems. We have every intention
to do the best we can do engineering-wise to retain silt on site.
Taube stated it was important to retain water on site, so water doesn't come
into lake fast, to prevent blowout. We need 48 hour retention. Carity stated
you want us to agree to retain our own run off as well as others. This was a
pig farm with run off. Dumke responded that is why you got approval to improve
the area. Bob Patch stated we are trying to get this resolved, it is not as
bad as it seems.
The Mayor stated the City is going to look for timeliness and insurance
possibly with monetary recourse. We have worked diligently with you through
our staff. I don't think we are going to sit around and wait for this.
Bill Carity stated we can commit to completion two (2) months after plans are
approved by the City of Muskego, whether expansion of detention areas, outlet
structures controlling silt on site, rip rap etc.
Taube stated, however, a caveat with DNR involved, now you have got a big
bureaucracy with the EIS, and the lake is having a problem. Carity said we can
get a portion of the alternatives completed.
Taube asked why would it take 30 days to review the Midwest report? Carity
responded because that report is nothing but a report about the amount of silt
in that bay and the cost to dredge Moonlight Bay two (2) years ago. There is
quantity, how much are we responsible for?
nothing in this that we're responsible for. You have to come up with a
Bob Patch stated we plan on and will deliver what we promised to do. Taube
stated ultimately to keep soil on site. Patch said we are willing to do that.
Patch said we are willing to submit a time table to the City in the next 24
hours outlining what we are trying to accomplish. However, we don't know the
wild cards, such as the DNR. Dumke, Sanders and Taube all said, if you can't
follow it, why commit to it? Patch said we're close.
Mike Campbell of Ruekert ti Mielke, arrived at this point in the meeting, and
stated he received a copy of a DNR letter today indicating the original idea to
divert the navigable stream to pond number 1, probably will not be allowed by
the DNR. That was the original concept to divert and release slowly. Permits
were not applied for, laws changed and now DNR won't allow. Pond now half the
size and will only catch much smaller part of the water.
A technical meeting to review alternatives will be held to look up stream for
holding areas, and look at Wetland, which is almost acting like a detention
pond, and outlet for a culvert under Sunset Drive. They have been asked to
working on those numbers. They're promising that by next Monday, at another
look at what the storage was before development and after development. They're
technical meeting, we'll look at the numbers before the 21st meeting. What
this means is the volume control of water, off the site, might be very
difficult to handle. However, sediment control is a major issue with the Lake
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Association because of water quality.
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0 What about empty schaefer Farm? The DNR and City have told them other
alternatives have to be looked at. Would you ask DNR what we're supposed to do
about the 55 acres? Ask them for their assistance with the solution.
Mike Campbell said we have to remember it is the developer that changed the
developers problem and not the City's problem. They should, and their
land, and the developer must get permits and solution, and it must remain the
engineers should, ask the DNR. Bob Patch responded that the DNR is at all our
meetings and know of the problems.
Mike Campbell stated we're not aware that the original engineer did not include
the 55 acres.
Misko moved to adjourn at 7:42 p.m. Schneider seconded, carried with Patterson
and Taube voting no.
Respectfully submitted
an K. Marenda, CMC
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